Question: If you are given a choice to form a standard 5 boxer...

[Revision]

Originally Posted by Ualaa

Each of my encounters with the boxer have been in the open.
Basically one of us at the base of a Tower or Bunker, and preventing anyone from going in to cap it, or having capped it and preventing anyone from going in to recap it.
There were also three altercations at two graveyard in a single match... he was at Frostwolf Graveyard and I took it from him... and then he rezzed at Reserve Hut, which I also ended up taking... and then was holding (until it reverted to horde control) when he attacked and unsuccessfully tried to take it from me.

Single target spells lose to cleave effects; that is the main downfall of my Feral team vs anything with cleave.
So we have Chain Lightning vs Howling Blast.

The range on Chain Lightning is 40 yards (30 base, +10 via talents); there is a two second cast time for this spell.
The range on Howling Blast is 30 yards, but it will hit everyone within a 10 yard radius; this is an instant cast.
So you might get one volley of Chain Lightning, and then everyone is in the same range as everyone else.

Chain Lightning deals reduced damage, as it hits additional targets.
Howling Blast deals the full splash damage to each of the first ten targets and then begins to deal lesser damage to the 11th target and beyond.

In Unholy Presence, which any Frost DK who is in PvP will be using, the Global Cooldown is 1.0 seconds, which is reduced by haste.
You will essentially get four Howling Blasts (per DK) off, in under four seconds (Mastery and Haste, are essentially equally good for a boxed Frost DK).
Even with a lot of haste, you're not going to get much more than two Chain Lightning volleys in a four second window; even if you use Elemental Mastery, that costs a Global Cooldown meaning you've done one instant cast (1.5 seconds of GCD) plus a second non-instant cast (2 seconds) and are 25% of the way through the third cast by the time the fourth (sixteenth full damage hit) set of Howling Blasts has already landed.

I cannot talk to his level of Resilience.
Many people choose to go with PvE gearing, because they hit much harder than they would in PvP gearing.
Others, like myself, stack the PvP gear because of the Resilience which increases our survival rate at the cost of damage dealt (which is not much of an issue when you're boxing 4x DPS with heals... or 5x DPS).

We haven't even looked at Anti-Magic Shell, which reduces spell damage by 75% (to one quarter of what it would deal to others), until the DK's take 50% of their health in damage....
So Chain Lightning is at 25% effectiveness, until it deals 80K damage or seven seconds has elapsed.

Any time I encounter a boxed caster team in arena, its a free win.
Casters who are played by individuals who spread out and such, can be a real pain, but when they stay bunched up (as my teams do too, due to /Follow mechanics), nothing has the AoE cleave of the DK team.

Chain lightning uses mana - and as an elemental shaman using lightning shield you regain mana while spamming chain lightning. Meaning, you won't run out of mana. A death knight can do Howling Blast only so many times before all runes are on cooldown.

Anti-magic shell doesn't do enough to buy you the time to down 8 shamans and 2 druids healing them. At the most I've seen anti-magic shell give the DK another 3-5 seconds to live before they die. Not to mention all the thunderstorms to push you away, the grounding totems to prevent death grip. Worst case scenario, all the elementals.

And a knowledged multiboxer in PVP knows to kill the healer(s) first, and if your healer is dead - your DKs will be right behind him.

[Ualaa]

His team was 8x Elemental and 2x Resto (Shaman) not druids.

One of the altercations he popped his Fire Elementals, but it didn't matter as it was over (as it is every time) in about 3 seconds... which is the typical duration of any altercation with a bunched up group of players in a battleground.
I pop my Ghouls, every combat as well... and they're available once each minute, but really are a non-factor against a group of bunched up toons.

If another team decides to focus fire, one toon at a time, they're even easier.

Lets say one of the DK's is killed almost immediately... which is a huge assumption, given DK's have extremely strong defensive cooldowns and if a toon is not killed instantly, the Pally puts out far more single target healing than any other healer.
Having the Pally heal, or not heal, does not slow down the speed of my DPS in the slightest; I only have to move my mouse scroll wheel up one notch and continue to do what I am already doing on the DK's.
The Pally doesn't run into melee range... she is never in danger from non-stealth, unless they "add" from another direction; the IWT starts before the DK's are in range to land a Howling Blast, but that has the DK's moving towards whatever they're going to smear before the other side has the ability to take out the Pally.

The other three will get a Howling Blast off each, and because of the GCD (and their spell being insta-cast every time) they'll get a second Howling Blast each before any one of them is hit again.
Six Howling Blasts puts any combination of ten or fewer non-bubble/ice-block/immunity-to-damage players at dangerously low health levels.

The kill target doesn't actually get to cast anything but instants.
Mind Freeze (which is also off of the GCD and Rune/Runic Power free) fires off every 1.5 seconds for the duration of any battle with an infinite duration.

For the seven seconds of my Anti-Magic Shell (which is available every 45 seconds) and is both built into my DPS spam (so it is automatic) and off of the GCD (so it doesn't slow my DPS in the slightest)...
My toons are immune to effects which would give a debuff icon; I have never been Hex'd, Sheep'd, Fear'd, etc, during the duration of the AMS.
Sure, it is short... but in that brief window (which occurs at the start of almost every combat), they have a great chance to kill anything.

Same deal if a team decides to Chain Heal themselves.
Howling Blast from four toons... puts out far more damage than AoE healing does from two toons.
It might be a different story, if all ten of his toons were healing... or if he had four healing spec'd healers and six DPS or whatever.



The thing is Howling Blast is extremely strong, it is one of the biggest things that makes the composition.

I never actually get into melee range, before they're dead.
Sure my IWT spam is built into my DPS rotation (unless I toggle it off), but even if the team were stationary and trading spell volleys... it is no difference.
Earthbind Totem (root) or Frost Shock (snare) are irrelevant, it is the ranged attack that wins for me, prior to my closing to melee range.

They are dead, before I close to melee, meaning my only damage has been the Howling Blasts.
I do activate my Pillar of Frost, as I charge in anytime the opposition is a Shaman (Thunderstorm) or Boomkin (Typhoon); PoF is 15 seconds of outright immunity to any form of knockback, and is on a one-minute cooldown.
The same is true, when my team runs at a Priest (Psychic Fear), Warlock (Howl of Terror), or Warrior (their shout that makes everyone but their target run), except in that case I use Lichborne which is on a two-minute cooldown.

I don't need Death Grips to kill anyone who is within 30 yards of my team.
Because of the ranged nature of Howling Blast, I am essentially immune to snare/root effects as well.
In a bunker, in Alterac Valley, I actually disable my IWT and stand on the stairs if moving in to take it out... and rely on ranged combat vs ranged combat, to kill off the other side. Or if holding a bunker from the inside, I space my toons around the upper ring (with backs to the walls, for knockback immunity) and again rely on having at least 3 DK's able to trade spell vs spell blows on anyone who can attack any of the DK's.

Mana efficiency is not an issue, the 3-4 second battle is over long before anyone has used more than a fraction of their mana.

[Tim]

Ualaa could you post a video of what it is like to PVP with your own 4x DK and 1x Holy Pally? I'd love to see what you do!

[SethLan]

that would be cool. i wanna see shamans getting owned.

[SethLan]

Originally Posted by Ualaa

His team was 8x Elemental and 2x Resto (Shaman) not druids.

One of the altercations he popped his Fire Elementals, but it didn't matter as it was over (as it is every time) in about 3 seconds... which is the typical duration of any altercation with a bunched up group of players in a battleground.
I pop my Ghouls, every combat as well... and they're available once each minute, but really are a non-factor against a group of bunched up toons.

If another team decides to focus fire, one toon at a time, they're even easier.

Lets say one of the DK's is killed almost immediately... which is a huge assumption, given DK's have extremely strong defensive cooldowns and if a toon is not killed instantly, the Pally puts out far more single target healing than any other healer.
Having the Pally heal, or not heal, does not slow down the speed of my DPS in the slightest; I only have to move my mouse scroll wheel up one notch and continue to do what I am already doing on the DK's.
The Pally doesn't run into melee range... she is never in danger from non-stealth, unless they "add" from another direction; the IWT starts before the DK's are in range to land a Howling Blast, but that has the DK's moving towards whatever they're going to smear before the other side has the ability to take out the Pally.

The other three will get a Howling Blast off each, and because of the GCD (and their spell being insta-cast every time) they'll get a second Howling Blast each before any one of them is hit again.
Six Howling Blasts puts any combination of ten or fewer non-bubble/ice-block/immunity-to-damage players at dangerously low health levels.

The kill target doesn't actually get to cast anything but instants.
Mind Freeze (which is also off of the GCD and Rune/Runic Power free) fires off every 1.5 seconds for the duration of any battle with an infinite duration.

For the seven seconds of my Anti-Magic Shell (which is available every 45 seconds) and is both built into my DPS spam (so it is automatic) and off of the GCD (so it doesn't slow my DPS in the slightest)...
My toons are immune to effects which would give a debuff icon; I have never been Hex'd, Sheep'd, Fear'd, etc, during the duration of the AMS.
Sure, it is short... but in that brief window (which occurs at the start of almost every combat), they have a great chance to kill anything.

Same deal if a team decides to Chain Heal themselves.
Howling Blast from four toons... puts out far more damage than AoE healing does from two toons.
It might be a different story, if all ten of his toons were healing... or if he had four healing spec'd healers and six DPS or whatever.



The thing is Howling Blast is extremely strong, it is one of the biggest things that makes the composition.

I never actually get into melee range, before they're dead.
Sure my IWT spam is built into my DPS rotation (unless I toggle it off), but even if the team were stationary and trading spell volleys... it is no difference.
Earthbind Totem (root) or Frost Shock (snare) are irrelevant, it is the ranged attack that wins for me, prior to my closing to melee range.

They are dead, before I close to melee, meaning my only damage has been the Howling Blasts.
I do activate my Pillar of Frost, as I charge in anytime the opposition is a Shaman (Thunderstorm) or Boomkin (Typhoon); PoF is 15 seconds of outright immunity to any form of knockback, and is on a one-minute cooldown.
The same is true, when my team runs at a Priest (Psychic Fear), Warlock (Howl of Terror), or Warrior (their shout that makes everyone but their target run), except in that case I use Lichborne which is on a two-minute cooldown.

I don't need Death Grips to kill anyone who is within 30 yards of my team.
Because of the ranged nature of Howling Blast, I am essentially immune to snare/root effects as well.
In a bunker, in Alterac Valley, I actually disable my IWT and stand on the stairs if moving in to take it out... and rely on ranged combat vs ranged combat, to kill off the other side. Or if holding a bunker from the inside, I space my toons around the upper ring (with backs to the walls, for knockback immunity) and again rely on having at least 3 DK's able to trade spell vs spell blows on anyone who can attack any of the DK's.

Mana efficiency is not an issue, the 3-4 second battle is over long before anyone has used more than a fraction of their mana.

so you say 8x shamans, that cast Lava burst at ones. wont kill 1 dk? or paly without a bubble?

[Ualaa]

I stream almost all of my play, which is predominantly battlegrounds Ualaa ... tons of footage, to sift through.




They could potentially kill a DK, I would imagine.
The pally is outright immune to their damage, in a head-on altercation, by virtue of being out of spell range.

I've run into the guy, six or seven times where it was boxer vs boxer, with both of us ready.
In every one of those, at the end of the battle none of his toons were alive and some/all of my DK's, plus my Pally to rez the deceased.
I did not bother looking him up in the armory... so I don't know his relative gearing, or even if it was PvE or PvP gearing for that matter.

Again, we're both bunched up, which makes AoE damage extremely strong... and against ten or fewer toons Howling Blast is an extremely strong AoE.
It does very good damage against a single target, the splash damage is high (and hits up to 10 targets without losing anything) and it places a Frost Fever dot on each target (four dots, because of four DK's).
I do AMS at the start of combats (it's built into my default spam keys).

[Revision]

Anti-Magic Shell doesn't do that much for you. I have personally been able to instantly kill a death knight with AMS up using only flame shocks and lava bursts. At best AMS will prevent you from flying away by Thunderstorm, but lasts for such a short duration that you'll go bye bye when AMS is down anyways.

I have met several multiboxers in AV, from 4 DK + HPal to 5 Shamans and even 10 Shamans. The weakest team of them all that I so far faced was the 4DK 1HPal team. Howling blast did jack **** and the number of grounding totems prevents alot of death grips. Without a doubt the toughest competition I've met was a group of shamans, since it's spammable non-stop AOE damage.

Either way, you won't be able to spam howling blast considering the limitation of runes - while chain lightning can be spammed without stop since as long as you hit 2-3 targets you will gain more mana back from it than you will lose.

And bubble will save a paladin, unless used it's a guaranteed death if there's 8 lava bursts coming at you. That is, assuming the shamans aren't PVE or poorly PVP geared.

Never met a single player in a BG that could live through chain lightning spam, no matter their gear.

[Ualaa]

Honestly, I don't really care if you think Pally and 4x DK's is strong or that it isn't strong.
And since my opinion is diametrically different from yours, you probably don't care that I'd pick it as by a very large margin the strongest 5-box pvp composition.

If anyone wants to see Pally/4x DK's in action, to judge for yourself, check out my stream.

[Ualaa]

Actually had a run in, with a much better Elemental shaman boxer.
Five box, not a ten-box.

Either better gear, or a better rotation...
Or maybe both.

Was not ever a me-vs-him on our own.
So cannot really say which is a stronger composition.
But I did survive with at least some toons, each time we met in mass melee.
To be fair though, RathStrat is a premade and the majority of the allies we meet are random pugs; so we have a bit more coordination on our pushes... even if we have zero gear requirements.

I can say 5x Lava Bursts, without Flame Shocks even.. can one shot a 75% Conquest (25% current season honor) DK.
Didn't even press the attack key, had Lava Bursts through a hill (coming up to Stormpike Graveyard)... so no warning that he was even there.





I'd still stay 4x DK's with a Healer is a stronger composition.
And likely the strongest composition for PvP play.

Either composition is extremely good at blowing up groups of opponents.

But the DK's aren't glass cannons; they don't care if there are a couple of Warriors in their midst doing Bladestorms.
Against any kind of melee damage (bleeds/dots aren't melee), they have a very significant advantage over Shammies, due to much higher armor.
Bleeds/Dots and spells are going to hit each composition, as hard as the other.

The Shammies have a round-robin knockback.
And can stagger their Earth Bind totems, for snare/root.

The DK's have Death Grip and snaring around wherever they use their Unholy Runes.
That gives them a decided advantage in controlling a choke point.



I really like having Tremor Totem on round-robin, for Shaman teams.
Nothing really compares to that.
And Grounding is certainly decent against caster teams.

DK's have knockback protection.
Fear protection, but not a fear break.
They have Stun break and immunity.
And Anti-Magic Shell.
And can Dark Sim, to copy a defensive cooldown on any mana user (well, the next spell they cast... but you'd use it, when they're hurting and you think they'll do an insta-cast buff like bubble or pain suppression).

Fire & Earth Elementals are on the same cooldown as Army of the Dead.
The normal ghoul for a DK is a shorter cooldown.

But both compositions certainly have their appeal.
And both are getting a lot stronger in Mists.

[Tim]

Hey Ualaa, could you paste the macros your Frost DKs use when they are PVPing, as well as PVEing? Thanksssssss